I've been giving some thought to this concept of are the others good or bad ? What are they and what are they not capable of ? I thought about the concept of them bringing all of those people to the island and causingthe plane to come down whether directly or through someone else or something else killing some people and leaving other people alive. When you just lay it out like that, it sounds so farfetched, so unbelievable. Can a person or group of people be that heartess ? That cruel and calculating ? Would they, could they really go that far ?
I then think about Ethan who broke every bone in a mans body, hung Charlie from a rope and left him for dead. Goodwin snapped Nathans neck so that he wouldn't be revealed as an "other. " He says " Nathan was a bad man. " By who's judgement ? By what law ?
Now we see that they are willing to kill in order to accomplish their goals. They had Juliets husband killed in order to influence her to join them and then have pretty much held her prisoner there for 3 years.
Is it really that farfetched to think that they would or could setup a plane full of people to drop from the sky knowing that part of them would be killed instantly and others injured and would die a slow death ? Is it really beyond what a human being would do to another human being ?
It isnt, if you consider that human beings over the centuries have devalued other groups of human beings and pretty much lowered them, in their own minds to a status of less than human.
Hitler destroyed nearly an entire nation through horrid and beyond grotesque means. Incenerating them in fires, experimenting on them through horrific means. We will never know all the atrocities he committed. Joseph Stalin. Even Saddam.
Think of all the cult leaders who have influenced people to cut themsleves off from friends and family and ultimately commit mass murder of themselves.
Think of the slave years when africans were considered almost near to animals and treated worse than cattle and horses at times.
The ugly truth that we don't want to admit, is that though man has great potential for good, an enormous potential for incredible and amazing feats, man also has a great potential for dark and morbid evil.
We are not cut and dry creatures. Remember the kid in school that got ragged on and tormented ? Because someone influential, who people looked up to, or was afraid of, said that person was less than. And so, he became less than and was looked upon in that manner for the rest of his days in that school.
WE are all, all of us - yes, even us, capable of evil, of dark thoughts and deeds, just as much as we are goodness. Many of our poets and writers throughout the years have understood this. Emily Dickenson, Edgar Allen Poe, Joseph Conrad, and yes .... even Stephen King. All of them had or have the courage to flush out that part of us that we don't want to admit to. We hide it and pretend that it's not there. WE meaning the human race as a whole.
Christians often refer to it as the carnal nature of man. Our fleshly or Natural side as opposed to the spiritual/Godly side. Judaism refers to it as the Evil Inclination as opposed to the Godliness that is within. And I suppose, in a way - which I'm not much into Eastern thinking, at least not too deeply, but I think probably the Yen/Yang alludes to this as well.
It's within all of us - good and evil. Darkness and light. It's ultimately our choice as to which we submit to. But it's also up to us to understand what causes us to submit to each one - what causes us to submit to this darkness within us ? When we recognize it, we have the ability to resist.
So, in all that - yes, I believe that the others are capable of extreme evil and could have very well brought that plane down knowing full well that they were murdering people in the process.
BTW, just so ya know - I don't believe that Desmond brought down the plane seeing that the plane was already 1000 miles off course before the plane crashed. Something got them off course and that something is what brought the plane down.
Evil and good are biased view points by indiviaduals. One mans good is another mans evil and yada yada. Some others are good, some others are bad. Is capital punishment evil? On an island with no government there is no law to decide right vs. wrong. The others are definately unscrupulous. However it all depends on what their main objective is as to whether or not they are evil. Once again if the others are trying to save the world by any means necessary by altering the valenzetti numbers then is it good or evil to sacrifice a hundred or so people to save six billion?
LionQueen wrote: So, it then was neither good or evil that motivated Jeffry Dahmer to murder and eat people ?
I get your point but its not a good example, I draw a line between evil and crazy. We(most of us) eat animals every day. To say it is wrong to kill and eat animals as long as they are not cute or human is a perspective. Canibals in Papau New Guinea would not think it is evil to kill people and eat them. Good and evil are inventions of mankind that suit us. The only reason murder is evil, or that we distinguish between murder and killing, is that our society evolved in that way. It is not inherent since we need a law, parable or religion to tell us that it is so. Is it evil to subjugate women? A good portion of the world does not think so... yet we take this for granted as a given. It is our belief and therefore our viewpoint.
So, then, it is okay for someone to treat people theway hitler did because in his eyes, he was just ridding the world of pesky people? It is okay then to steal, kill, lie, cheat on your spouse, injure or harm another person because evil is relative ?
Darkness lies in humans just as light does. Animals, now, animals are just animals. It's the nature of who they are. domesticated animals learn behavior from us.
LionQueen wrote: So, then, it is okay for someone to treat people theway hitler did because in his eyes, he was just ridding the world of pesky people? It is okay then to steal, kill, lie, cheat on your spouse, injure or harm another person because evil is relative ?
Darkness lies in humans just as light does. Animals, now, animals are just animals. It's the nature of who they are. domesticated animals learn behavior from us.
Is it okay to do those things? I try to leave my beliefs at the doormat during a philosophical conversation. I believe it is not ok. Hitler believed it was ok. Is any one view point more real than the next? no. Is it ok that the U.S. killed fascists, communists, native americans and countless others so that we could exist in our current state? Good for us, bad for them. What exactly is it that makes the same act good in some circumstances and evil in the next.
Is it evil to do what you need to survive even if it means lying and stealing?
Is it evil to harm or injure a terrorist bent on killing your countrymen?
I was born because my dad cheated on his spouse... Is my existence evil?
We are animals. We are smart animals. Animals do all the good and evil things we do. They protect, share, adopt and love. They kill, steal, cheat and exterminate. If the only difference is intellect then is it ok to kill a person who is intellectualy inferior to you? Is it ok to kill a person in a vegetative state because they lack conciousness? Things are not so black and white.
Every act that has come to pass has led to this moment right now.
LionQueen wrote: So, then, it is okay for someone to treat people theway hitler did because in his eyes, he was just ridding the world of pesky people? It is okay then to steal, kill, lie, cheat on your spouse, injure or harm another person because evil is relative ?
Darkness lies in humans just as light does. Animals, now, animals are just animals. It's the nature of who they are. domesticated animals learn behavior from us.
Is it okay to do those things? I try to leave my beliefs at the doormat during a philosophical conversation. I believe it is not ok. Hitler believed it was ok. Is any one view point more real than the next? no. Is it ok that the U.S. killed fascists, communists, native americans and countless others so that we could exist in our current state? Good for us, bad for them. What exactly is it that makes the same act good in some circumstances and evil in the next.
Is it evil to do what you need to survive even if it means lying and stealing?
Is it evil to harm or injure a terrorist bent on killing your countrymen?
I was born because my dad cheated on his spouse... Is my existence evil?
We are animals. We are smart animals. Animals do all the good and evil things we do. They protect, share, adopt and love. They kill, steal, cheat and exterminate. If the only difference is intellect then is it ok to kill a person who is intellectualy inferior to you? Is it ok to kill a person in a vegetative state because they lack conciousness? Things are not so black and white.
Every act that has come to pass has led to this moment right now.
Jordan, there are some comparions you're making there that are not the same as what I'm talking about. For one, you are not responsible for what your father did. Sometimes good comes out of bad circumstances. That does not validify the " evil " that was done. I'm a product of rape ... am I evil ? For God sakes, no. Is it embarassing ? Sometimes. Is it complicated - gah!
Animals do behave in similar ways, but animalhave no sense of right and wrong. No conscience that guides them and tells them what's right and wrong. Domesticated animals learn a very very basic low amount. Like, my cat knows when he's done something that does not please me.
There is also a difference between killing someone and murdering soemone. To kill to protect your life is not evil or a product of the dark nature of man, but instinctual self-preservation. Murder is a product of greed, lust, envy, covetousness. Hitler's motivations for doing those things to innocent people was of hatred and bitterness.
There is a right and a wrong. And even if you don't want to admit it, you know it's truth. If it were not, you'd be living a lawless life, stealing, killing and raping. You wouldn't be kind to others, nor avoid arguements for the sake of the value of a friendships. It is instincualt to us, it's in us naturally. A basic sense of right and wrong. It's laws and guidelines, though, that help us define it.
I cried, "Oh, Lady Midnight, I fear that you grow old, the stars eat your body and the wind makes you cold." "If we cry now," she said, "it will just be ignored."
dare i mention the concept of free will given to us by god??? as human beings, we can make choices...to do that which is considered good thru the works of helping/loving others because god loves us... or to follow our very nature of being selfish and mean and egotistical.... it is easy being the latter and it is a constant fight to follow the teachings of christianity... helping/loving because it is the way to show god's love in our lives....
is it okay to do evil things to other people? no, but it is our nature. why make the decision to be good? because it is the way to celebrate a great gift that has been given to us just because we are the creation of god.... everyone makes the choice in their life to be good or evil... i chose good, as much as possible. eko thought he chose good, yet did bad things. the others believe they are doing good, tho since the LOSTies entered their world, achieving good has not been the same. our LOSTies seem to fight each other and the others at the drop of a hat? is this being good? at what point does being good become evil? is there an absolute good? are there degrees of good? and degrees of evil? absolute evil? even the followers of sawyer will rationalize his actions so that his evil acts seem good... as i do with locke... defining good and evil.... perhaps not possible, within the concepts of LOST...
My arguments are my beliefs... A belief is a viewpoint yes? What is a belief? A belief is an idea that has been presented to you that you accept. The difference between humans and animals is our ability to understand ideas and accept or reject them. We must know that something is evil to be able to conciously choose evil. What if we don't know its evil? In many ancient cultures human sacrifice was accepted as pious. So where is the concious decision to do evil when practicing a ritual that is thought to be good when today its accepted as evil?
I have chosen to be a good person in relation to the ideas that were presented to me. Had those ideas been different then my choice may have been different. There is no core right and wrong. An action is measured against a belief as right or wrong. If the belief is different, then the measurment against it for the same exact action is different.
If you are raised a polygamist then marrying several wives is not an evil decision... If you are raised catholic then marrying several wives is an immoral decision. If as you have said the same exact action can be evil or good depending on the motivation then there can be no concrete good or evil.
You can have your cake or eat it... not both. If there is no concrete good and evil then they don't exist outside of the framework of societal beliefs. If there is a concrete good and a concrete evil then every living thing is capable of both, no preconcept or motivation changes the determination of whether an act is good or evil.
Thou shalt not kill, yeah? It doesn't say Thou shalt not kill unless yada yada yada. To follow this doctrine means to not lie, steal or kill even in the act of self preservation. If one really believes in this as concrete then you can't add in the circumstance of the act.
I believe there is no concrete good or evil, just competing interests. When the majority of the people around you, society, agree on a common interest, then falling in line with that interest is good. No one wants to be killed... therefore someone who goes against the common interest by killing someone is evil. Therefore if society believes chewing gum is evil and you chew gum then in relation to society you are evil. Children believe in santa claus because we say he exists. Just because someone accepts a belief does not mean that belief is a real thing.
If the difference between good and evil are innate and naturally inside of us then how do we explain the mongolian horde? How do we explain barbarians? How do we explain whole societies that by our standards are evil? Did every single mongolian go against what was inside of them? Was the difference between good and evil not the same for them? How do we explain the crusades fought by people with our same fundamental beliefs? If it is as simple as saying their societies were evil compared to ours then how come our society has killed so many more people? Are we any better than the mongolians or nazis?
Total people killed in WWII is just over 61 million. Subtracting those killed by the japanese empire and total axis casualties brings down the number of those killed by germany to just under forty million.
The united states which we fund with our taxes has killed more people than any other society ever. We piss on the amount of people hitler killed. The united states has diretly caused the deaths of aproximately two hundred million people worldwide since the start of the revolutionary war. 5% of the total current population, that is one out of every 20 people alive today. Between 64-100 million native americans killed off the bat. 130,000 japanese killed in one day. 660,000 killed in the war on Islam so far. Two million koreans in the korean war. five and a half million vietnamese killed in vietnam. six million people killed by CIA funded operations in africa just during the cold war. Three million south and central americans killed by CIA funding during the cold war as well. This is leaving out countless small wars and operations. Are we the most evil then?
BTW my arguments are not necessarily my beliefs. I can easily argue for something I am against and I do it all the time.
I cried, "Oh, Lady Midnight, I fear that you grow old, the stars eat your body and the wind makes you cold." "If we cry now," she said, "it will just be ignored."
no... i think you hit the nail on the head! there is nothing like absolute good or evil... these depend on circumstances... the US believes that it is good yet it does evil things... hitler did the same... as does the islam nation and israel... can good only be achieved through good acts?? if it is achieved thru deviancy and seemingly wrong decisions is it still good? i want peace. peace is good. peace can only be achieved if all my enemies are dead. i must kill all my enemies to achieve the good of peace. right or wrong?
no... i think you hit the nail on the head! there is nothing like absolute good or evil... these depend on circumstances... the US believes that it is good yet it does evil things... hitler did the same... as does the islam nation and israel... can good only be achieved through good acts?? if it is achieved thru deviancy and seemingly wrong decisions is it still good? i want peace. peace is good. peace can only be achieved if all my enemies are dead. i must kill all my enemies to achieve the good of peace. right or wrong?
That is the sixty-four thousand dollar question. The act is atrocious to be sure... however if it succeeds then future generations might see it as good. It would be good for those who remain if it led to world peace. For those who were destroyed during the act at that time it would be evil. When it comes to us Vs. them conflict the good guys are the winners. To be sure we only need to look at the conflict between muslims and jews. A conflict we are mostly isolated ideologically from. If your jewish then jews are good and those who wish to destroy you evil. If you are muslim then you are good and the zionists are evil. Astoundingly this corelates directly to Lost.
If you are one of the others then the others are the good guys. If you are a lostie then the losties are the good guys. Example: The children being snatched up... From the ana lucia perspective this is an evil act. From the others perspective could they really let children be forced to deal with surviving on an island when they have shelter and supplies? At the same time some of the adults might pose a threat to the others safety... obviously someone does as per all the guns and security the others possess. The excpetion here and what I can't get my head around is Ethan. He was clearly doing naughty things like killing people who were not even involved. Nathan on the other hand tried so hard to prove that Ana Lucia was a good person... going so far as to kill Nathan before Ana could hurt him.
I cried, "Oh, Lady Midnight, I fear that you grow old, the stars eat your body and the wind makes you cold." "If we cry now," she said, "it will just be ignored."
I think I over did it 
